Your ultra-radical art projects during theCOUM Transmissionsera [in the 1970s] shattered every conceivable boundary – from the ethical to the bodily. Even now, viewed through the lens of history, it feels as though you broke through everything that could be broken, before crossing over into pop culture. Has society become any freer? Has art become any less commodified?Dmitry_SI think it has become more commodified. Nothing comes to my attention that would make me think that art has become anything other than a business. That’s down to people wanting a career. I can understand that in today’s economic climate, as opposed to in the 70s, where there was nothing – you could squat or get very low rent, so you just did what you wanted. You don’t have those opportunities now. But I think about art being about self-expression before thinking:can I sell it? That’s whywhat Kneecap are doing is uncomfortablefor people. There’s such power behind them because the motivation is true and honest. That’s the difference. If your art or music is true and honest, it does hold a power and strength that some people might find uncomfortable, and therefore it gets hit.
I sometimes get the impression that there were times when you just wanted to do normal stuff and not be transgressive 24/7. Is this the case?ArthurCatRIPI think it would be exhausting to be transgressive 24/7. How do you go from A to B?! We used to go back to Beck Road [squat in Hackney, London] and have hot chocolate. People have lives to live. I don’t remember thinking: I’m going to push some boundaries now. That’s not the way I look at it. Everything I do is just about following my own intuition and my own interests.
You were at the cutting edge of an artistry that was confrontational and transgressive, but guided by a considered and intelligent concept.Kanye Westis publishing work steeped in fascist iconographywithout any philosophy other than “pay attention to me”. Do you think that sort of work a continuation of your legacy or a corruption?EdsaykayIt’s definitely not a continuation. And I don’t think it’s a corruption either, because I don’t think it relates to what we did. In my opinion, it’s dangerous and cruel, and I don’t consider anything we did as dangerous and cruel. It was transgressive, and that made people open things up to discussion. Conversely, Kanye West shuts discussion down. I can’t even get my head around that kind of mentality.
Heartbeat [the 1981 debut album by Chris & Cosey, AKA Tutti and Chris Carter] was seismic. Every track was prescient andinfluential on so much emerging music for the next 20 years. How do you look at that album now?1leon1Heartbeat was the beginning of our musical career and our relationship. I have a very special affection for Heartbeat, maybe because I was pregnant during the time. It was a crossover album, anyway, because we recorded some of it when we were doing the lastThrobbing Gristlegigs. So in that respect, it’s quite important: bringing a new life, literally for me and Chris, but also a new life into our music having left TG. I went into labour when we were signing off the TG contract with the publishers in Denmark Street: all right, we’ve signed off, now I’m signing on and the baby’s coming. It was a great time and a very confusing time, with relationships and one era ending and another beginning. It was very positive.
What do you like about living in Norfolk?Does it inspire your art in any way?RobShepWhere we live is really quiet. When you think about TG and everything else we do, it’s kind of a contradiction. But I need that peace. Living in Norfolk is wonderful because we have huge skies, so sunrise and sunset are really fabulous. Living in a small village really does suit me. We like to go to the beach: Heacham is very Zen. Or we go up to Hunstanton, with the sand dunes. I swim a mile four times a week, but I won’t go in the sea any more. I once had a holiday in Yugoslavia and I got a Portuguese man o’ war sting on my arm.
As someone who used to talk about sexuality so much in your art, what do you think of the fact we lose so much of it as we get older?IdontmindSexuality, sex and lust is on an up-and-down anyway, whether to do with age or not. I think the main consideration as you get older is that you’re physically restricted in certain ways, so you’re not quite as gymnastic in your sexual activities. But if you’re inventive you find ways around it.
I used to follow youon Xand enjoyed your updates about your cat, Dexter. I recall that he passed a few years ago, and wonder if you have other cats in your life now?ScraggsDexter [first] turned up in the garden. We tend to adopt cats from cat sanctuaries, and orphans that turn up in our garden for some reason, but we’re glad they do. Spook is our new cat. He was very tiny when he came. I think he was savaged by a dog on his back leg. He was going to be called Hiss and Spit, because that’s all he did when we first went near him, but then he decided he would stay. He’s the most affectionate cat we’ve had. He’s a sweet little thing, the opposite of Dexter, who was named after the series. Dexter was a serial killer with mice. I think he’d been ill-treated, because he didn’t like legs much. He’d been kicked a lot.
I get the impression that early COUM was quite whimsical andhippy-ish. Over the years the direction became darker and more transgressive as it went in a more body art direction.By the time of early Throbbing Gristle you have songs likeVery FriendlyandSlug Bait, whichdeal with the darkest of subject matter. It must take its toll inhabiting those worlds;how did you and the others deal with that psychic load?Marko_I think the only toll it took was with me from the ICA [the COUM exhibition there in 1976, Prostitution, caused outrage and was condemned in British parliament]. My parents disowned me. Nobody else had that happen to them. The guys got away with it, but the girl didn’t. I was the one judged, not them. How do you deal with it? You have to get on and think: that side of my life is over with now. Maybe I’ll come back to it later, or maybe not, but I’m not going to be sitting on the sidelines, waiting and begging.
Which of your works do you feel has been most misunderstood by audiences or critics?mrstoreyI don’t think it’s the work so much as people misunderstanding me and the ideas behind it. We’d have to go back to 1976 and the [adult] magazine work. [Critics] weren’t even interested in finding out what it was about; they were just outraged over whatever. It completely surprised me.
What I was going through then is still happening now. That’s the saddest part – things haven’t moved forward so much. But it doesn’t mean that you stop being who you are, making sure your presence is felt and seen and heard. I think that’s important.
When we did castings for who was going to play me in the first version [of the adaptation] of my memoir Art Sex Music , it blew my mind because I had the first inkling of how much my work had influenced people. Two hundred people came forward to play me. They had to write a thing about why they wanted to play me. I was in tears at some of them. It was really touching.
In your book you mention dancing in the strip club toCandi Staton’s Nights on Broadway, then recently you posted thatPatti Smith’s Because the Nightwas a regular in your striptease routine. What other songs do you remember dancing to?SophiepenroseI’ve got all the singles still, about 140 of them. The thing with records for stripping is that the guys had to be able to relate to it. So the records shifted over time – whatever was popular or suggestive: Diana Ross’s Muscles. Hot Legs by Rod Stewart. I did Alternative TV’s Love Lies Limp as an ironic nod to the guys in the audience. Hard Workin’ Man [by Brooks and Dunn] was for the Dagenham Ford workers – it had percussion like hammers. I used to love dancing to that. I used to dance to Abba’s Dancing Queen because Chris bought me that single, and just have a jolly time thinking about him. I used to forget to take my top off at times if I was really enjoying the record.
You have been a great influence on techno;did you ever go raving?francoisPNo, and I regretted that so much. I wasn’t in a position to do that. I remember driving home one day past an illegal rave and thinking, God: I wish I could go. What was stopping me? Life and my heart condition. When you suddenly get ill, that your choices get more limited. But there you go.
What’s your favourite thing to grow in your garden?deejaygeejaygeeMy dad used to make me do the gardening when I was young, and I hated it! But I’m glad he did, because it taught me quite a lot. I grew broad beans at Beck Road. Then I didn’t have a garden until Chris and I moved to Tottenham. Then we moved here, into an old school. We had the paved playground smashed up and taken away to form a garden.
At this time of year the asparagus is really great. So at the moment, my favourite is asparagus, because we can have some every day and it’s absolutely delicious. The strawberries are going to be nice because all the flowers are out. But also, the flowers have been amazing – the aquilegias and forget-me-nots. I’ve got a pathway of lavender down one side of the driveway, and that’s just coming through. As you come through the gates and go to the front door, you can smell it already, and it’s not even come out in flower. It’s beautiful.
Cosey Fanni Tutti’s new album 2t2 is released 13 June on Conspiracy International